RSS Feeds

Get your real-time updates here...
feed image
feed image
feed image
feed image
feed image
feed image
 

Search

 
Lumbermens

Poll

Give your 2008 a grade

(239 votes)

  • 38.1%
  • 25.1%
  • 16.3%
  • 13%
  • 7.5%
Please wait...

Plager Vision
 

News Ticker

Battle over local surf logo continues

Monday, January 5

Ryan Rittenhouse, founder of Santa Cruz Surf Apparel Co., held a press conference today, Jan. 5, to dispel the Santa Cruz Surfing Club Preservation Society’s current allegations against him...

more...

Watsonville is Closed

Monday, December 22

The facilities run by the city of Watsonville will be closed completely until Jan. 5, 2009, as the city attempts to save money in a slumping economy. The move...

more...

Vandalism strikes at UCSC

Thursday, December 18

University police had a busy morning on Wednesday, Dec. 17, as they took stock of the previous night’s vandalisms on the campus. The crimes were scattered across the large...

more...

More in: The Ticker

100%
-
+
3
Show options

Sudoku

Student 6
Election Guide 2008 | Print |  E-mail
Written by GTstaff   
Wednesday, 29 October 2008

Election Guide 2008 McCain 08 Obama 08 The most important and interesting presidential race of our time, dozens of local candidates and issues ... but don't forget those propositions! Good Times gives you a clear look at the 12 choices facing all California voters on this enormous ballot.

Vote No on Proposition 8

Thirty years ago, The Briggs Initiative (California Prop 6) hit the state ballot, creating a ripple effect in the human rights movement. The proposition, spearheaded by conservative state legislator John Briggs, who was based in Orange County, would have banned gays and lesbians from working in the state school system. It clearly stipulated that any teacher who was found encouraging or advocating homosexual activity would be terminated from employment. Basically, at its core it really said this: If you’re gay, you’re out. (We’re talking employment here.)

The prop gained momentum, thanks, in part, to another conservative at the time—Anita Bryant. Bryant had just come off of a successful campaign to repeal one of the nation’s first gay rights ordinances in Dade County, Florida. (Curiously, one can’t help but draw some parallels between Bryant and today’s Vice Presidential candidate, Sarah Palin.) Prop 6, in effect, became the first push on a ballot measure to hinder the rights of gays and lesbians. A great deal of this history happens to be documented in the new, highly anticipated film “Milk,” which chronicles the rise of the San Francisco gay movement, something that managed to work its way into the fabric of national politics for decades to come. In the film, an Oscar-worthy Sean Penn plays Harvey Milk, the well-known, outspoken member of the California Board of Supervisors who was assassinated, along with the city’s mayor, George Moscone, by supervisor Dan White on Nov. 27, 1978.

It’s good to recall these historic events during this election year. If anything, it shows how much the state—and the country—has evolved and, in some cases, not evolved at all.

Which brings us to the topic of Proposition 8. Through the years, Good Times hasn’t typically doled out political endorsements. The job of the newspaper, most of us here felt, was to present, as best we could, the rich kaleidoscope of issues facing the county’s readers. We’ve done that to award-winning ends, but then Prop 8 popped up on the ballot and with it, came an opportunity for us to re-examine where we stood—not just as journalists, but as human beings.

Prop 8, as many know by now, would alter the California Constitution and eliminate the right for same-sex couples to marry. Should it be passed, a new section would be added stipulating that “only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and recognized in California.”

ImageWhile it’s true that the remarkable funding and vigor of the Proposition 8 campaign—and even its existence—are rooted in hatred and misplaced religious zeal, we believe that Californians are not, in the majority, so twisted and misguided by those negative emotions to carry Proposition 8 and make it the only exclusionary clause in the California Constitution—a clause so against the spirit of the United States Constitution that it would make a mockery of the word “constitutional.”

And yet there is a solid chance that this odious notion, which would deny rights based on gender and sexuality, might pass. This is because of that milder side of the argument, made by those who, while not overtly angry or disgusted with homosexuality, believe faithfully that the word “marriage” must be reserved for a contract between a man and a woman.

Yes, there is tremendous power in the word “marriage,” and that’s why it should be made available to every person who’s capable of such love that they choose to use it. We have imbued the word with the ultimate and complete amounts of commitment, faithfulness, and sanctity. Sadly, it is a word with such power that many people—of all persuasions and sexualities—sometimes find they are incapable of living up to it. It is a word with such nobility that it perhaps asks more of people than they are truly capable. But that is why we choose to use it. The word ‘marriage’ represents a goal to be the best, most caring, most loving, most amazing person one can be for the sake of another person. There is no other word for that hope. The word must be available to all people.

Would California be a better place if we referred to only white youth as “children,” and youth of all other races as “wards?” Would this state be a friendly and healthy place to live if men were allowed to have “jobs” while women, no matter what profession they chose, had to call their occupations a "hobby"? Would it be just if California were to suddenly force criminals to give up the rights to the word “human,” or sensible to ask Muslims to call their faith a “cult?” Will the next step on our current path be forcing gay parents to refer to themselves as “guardians”?

There’s another tricky thing about Proposition 8. On some level, it screws with the fundamental laws of nature. By preventing those who love each other from marrying each other it attempts to once again control the love somebody has for another person. Ultimately, it’s an impossible thing to do. One cannot mandate who one loves, how they love, and to what degree that love should be exhibited. It’s like telling a tree not to grow toward the sky.

This year, we have witnessed thousands of historic marriages, in which committed and loving couples have speedily and joyously joined their lives together in the eyes of the state and their community. Sadly, some of the speed of those unions has been due to Proposition 8’s looming head, and the threat that the word “marriage” might once again recede away from homosexual men and women and the transgendered.

If you have any notion of skipping this election: please do not. Even if voting against Proposition 8 is the only mark you make on the ballot, it is crucial, even in an area that is so seemingly united. This is not, unlike other races and measures, a districted or otherwise segmented vote. It is a direct vote of the entire state. Santa Cruz cannot afford to merely oppose Proposition 8 by a 60, or 70, or even 80 percent margin. There are 137,807 registered voters in Santa Cruz County for the election on Nov. 4. Our goal is to see 100,000 votes against Proposition 8. Please join us in making that a reality, so that no other part of California can overwhelm our clear and just appreciation for the sanctity and joy of marriage for all.

For the record, Prop 6 didn’t pass in 1978. A new civil rights movement was formed because of its failure. Human rights prevailed. And, if we can defeat Prop 8, they may prevail for more generations to come.


Regulatory Propositions: What they aim to fix.

Prop 7: Renewable Energy Generation

What is the current process? California has legislation in place that aims to reduce the state’s greenhouse gas emissions to 1990 levels by 2020. Utility companies regulated by the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) are required to produce 20 percent of their electricity from renewable energy sources by 2010 and 40 percent by 2025.

How would it change? The PUC regulates investor-owned utilities and electric service providers, but not publicly-owned utilities. This proposition would apply the 20 percent requirement to all utilities companies, not just those regulated by the PUC. It would also increase the 2025 requirement from 40 to 50 percent and implement new penalties for companies who do not comply.  

What are the possible consequences? Proponents say that this is an opportunity for California to become a world leader in clean energy and that 370,000 new high-wage jobs will be created as a result. In addition to protecting the environment, they say that it will also protect consumers by limiting rate increases to three percent and ensuring that utilities companies who do not meet the requirements cannot recover their penalties from customers. The opposition claims that these requirements would shut out California’s small providers, which currently account for 60 percent of the state’s renewable energy contracts. In doing so, they fear that the proposition would actually deter progress in achieving clean energy. They also argue that consumer costs will actually rise because power companies will be allowed to charge 10 percent over the market price. They worry that this is the wrong path to take for a cleaner state; that simply increasing required percentages will not help California research and create new sources of renewable energy.

Prop 11: Redistricting

What is the current process? According to the California Constitution, the district boundaries for the U.S. House of Representatives, the state Assembly and Senate, and the Board of Equalizers (BOE) must be redrawn after each federal census. Currently, the legislature is responsible for redistricting.

How would it change? Proposition 11 asks for the responsibility of redistricting legislative and BOE zones to be shifted from the legislature to a new Citizens Redistricting Commission comprised of 14 members, including five from each of the state’s two main parties and four from neither party. Any California voter may apply to be a Commissioner, but will be subject to multiple screening processes. In drawing the district plans, the Commission must hold public hearings and accept public comment. There must be a total of nine votes for the plan to pass, including three from each of the two major parties and three from the other members. There is no foreseeable change to the fiscal impact of redistricting.

What are the possible consequences? Legislators will no longer be drawing their own district lines –a practice that Prop 11 proponents say allows them to “pick their own voters” and thus refrain from being truly accountable to voters. They argue that districting reform will alleviate the state’s party gridlock that is keeping legislators from properly dealing with issues such as healthcare, the budget and the environment. The opposition argues that the Commission will become a powerful entity that is not publicly elected like legislators are, and will not be made to reflect the gender, racial or geographic diversity of California’s people. 


Social Propositions: Mom and Dad argue about politics

Prop 2: Standards for Confining Farm Animals

In California, during their four-month pregnancies, female pigs are kept in two-foot-wide gestation stalls that aren't large enough for them to turn around in. Egg-laying hens are confined to battery cages in which they can't even spread their wings. Baby cows destined to be veal are taken from their mothers days after birth and tethered by their necks in stalls too small for them to turn around or lie down in. It's pure cruelty. If this proposition passes, the law will simply require that all farm enclosures that house these hens, calves and pigs will provide enough space for the animal to lie down, stretch and turn around. Is humane treatment too much to ask for?

It's luxurious to think that we could feed the world with animals set free in their natural habitats and allowed to live happy pig and chicken lives until they day they get beheaded, but farming is not a bucolic past time as so many people think. It's a business, and a harsh one because the "factory" in question is a living animal, and living beings are notoriously unique. Farms will always try to minimize the unknowns by finding efficient and uniform treatment for their animals. Are there cruelties that can and should be prevented? Of course, but those are already in place. This law is too restrictive, and would only apply to California farms, giving a competitive advantage to farmers in other states who can still practice in these "cruel" ways.  

The law is far from restrictive; it is simple and extremely reasonable. The law doesn't require factory farms to allow their animals to roam free. Asking farmers to keep their animals, or rather their "products," in confinements that give them room to lay down or stretch is hardly asking for a complete redesign of the industry- although it does have the potential to successfully reform the ethics of the factory farm industry, and do so without weakening capital or pushing business out of the state. Take Arizona for example, where a similar proposition passed in 2006. Not only did the state's industry leaders stay in state, but within three months of the prop's landslide victory, top veal producers had phased out their use of cruel veal crates and, following suit, the largest pig producers in the US and Canada announced they were phasing out gestation crates. So no, this prop won't hurt California's competitive edge. Rather, it will be an overdue opportunity for California -like Arizona- to raise the bar in healthy animal treatment for the rest of the country.

I'm not sure Arizona proves much, given that the desert state's livestock economy is much smaller than ours (168 farms involved in hog sales in 2002, according to the USDA census, compared to California's 1,513, just to take one example). It's one thing to provide mandated creature comforts for a marginal state with room for growth, but quite another to account for the impact in might have on a state that feeds the nation. Tell me these laws are passing in landslides in Iowa, and I might buy they aren't economically disastrous. If this were just about veal -- a niche product that involves the unwise slaughter of juveniles -- it would be different, and I don't know enough about pigs to say if the pregnancy bit is smart or not, but forcing farmers to create more space for 22.8 million hen-laying eggs is no small chore, or expense. The proposition bites off more than it can chew.

Prop 4: Waiting Period and Parental Notification Before Termination of Pregnancy

ImageSo you're a 14-year-old girl. You can't drive, drink, or vote. You're pregnant. And you can get an abortion -- potentially the most important decision of your entire life -- all by yourself? This isn't necessarily about whether or not abortion should be legal, but about whether or not children should be given the power to make life-altering decisions. Society has decided, on issue after issue, that when it comes to health (drinking), life-and-death (driving), and complex decision making (voting), young teenagers are not equipped to handle these things without certain restrictions or parental involvement, if at all. What's wrong with including abortion in this category?

You're right that this proposition isn't about whether abortion is right or wrong. No one wants a teenager to be in the position of seeking an abortion in the first place. The question is what would keep young girls safest. Prop 4 argues that mandatory parental notification would protect young girls, when really it would put many of them in serious danger. In an ideal society, all girls facing such a heavy decision would consult their parents. Ideally, all girls would be as lucky as those who have supportive, loving families in which communication is possible.  However, this law does not affect girls with such families. The real impact of this proposition wouldn't be the satisfaction of nosey parents or privacy-breeching state legislators, it would be the endangerment of girls with abusive, negligent or draconian families. It is imperative that we think of them while voting on this proposition.

Of course it's not a perfect world, and unfortunately there are some horrendous, abusive parents out there, but that's why we have child abuse laws on the books. This is really about cases where the pregnant child has formed different religious or social views than her parents -- and given the nature of children to rebel in teen years, that's not uncommon. I understand the viewpoint that abortion is a woman's right to choose, but that's a woman, an adult. Granting that right carte blanche to a girl essentially makes her mother's right to choose null and void. We have legal abortion in this country, but we also have legal protection for those who don't believe in it, under the first amendment's freedom of speech and religion. This statute chips away at that right, by robbing a parent's right to choose and handing that incredible burden to a child who, by all other standards of society, is not ready to make those kind of choices.

Whether you’re a grown woman or a teenage girl, you have the same rights to choose – and to choose in privacy. Law cannot mandate healthy communication between parents and children, no matter how hard it tries. This proposition is reactionary. It is reacting to the problem of teen pregnancy by weakening female reproductive rights that have been so long in the making. Parents and legislators alike should be more concerned with funding and implementing prevention and safe-sex education than taking away their daughter’s rights. Abortion will happen either way, and if a young girl does not feel safe knowing she must notify her family, she will be more likely to seek unsafe, illegal means of terminating her pregnancy. Not only does this proposition help push abortions to the back alley, once again, but it is just a taste of what would follow: restrictive propositions like this are popping up across the country to weaken Roe v. Wade, with the intentions of eventually overturning it. No, this law would not criminalize abortion. But where there is one little restrictive law there are many, many more to follow. A vote for this is a vote to start the snowball effect.   


Law & Order Propositions: Bust 'em, hold 'em, treat 'em

Prop 6: Police and Law Enforcement Funding.

ImageWhat does it do? Puts nearly $1 billion into the budgets for police, district attorneys, and jails, and strengthens many gang-related criminal statutes, some to the status of life sentences.

Who will it target? Primarily, gang members. Once identified as a gang member, a criminal would face stiffer penalties (up to life in prison) than non-gang offenders, and create a gang member registry similar to sex offenders upon parole. Also strengthens penalties for methamphetamine crimes.

What will it cost? In addition to a mandated $965 million on criminal justice, an estimated $500 million in increased prison facility costs annually.

Who’s for it? Every county sheriff in California has endorsed the measure, which they call the Safe Neighborhoods Act.

Who’s against it? The ACLU, the Democratic Party, most major labor unions, and the California Professional Firefighters.

Prop 9: Victims’ Rights and Parole.

ImageWhat does it do? Solicits the input of crime victims during bail, pleas, sentencing, and parole hearings, and increases the number of people allowed to attend parole hearings. Also guarantees restitution payments be prioritized higher than fines and fees when collecting money from convicted criminals.

Who will it target? Primarily the victims of crime and their families, by making their rights to have input constitutionally guaranteed.

What will it cost? There are no direct, mandated costs to this measure. The state estimates that parole will be harder to obtain, and thus jail facility costs will increase, but that some administrative costs for parole hearings will be decreased under this measure.

Who’s for it? Victims’ rights organizations like Justice for Murdered Children and the National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children, who call it Marsy’s Law after a 21-year-old murder victim.

Who’s against it? Once again, the ACLU, the Democratic Party, most major labor unions, and the California Professional Firefighters.

Prop 5: Nonviolent Drug Offenses, Sentencing, Parole, and Rehabilitation

What does it do? Creates funding for expanded treatment programs and shortens parole periods for non-violent drug offenses. Creates a three-tiered system for categorizing drug crimes.

Who will it target? Nonviolent criminals who are charged with possession or use of illegal drugs, with special lenience for first-time offenders. 

What will it cost? A mandated $460 million a year to create a 23-member oversight board, the three-tiered diversion system for especially non-violent offenders, and a new juvenile treatment program. The state estimates that an additional $1 billion in treatment costs would be offset by $1 billion in decreased incarceration costs, and that the long-term benefits to less prison facilities needed could reach $2.5 billion.

Who’s for it? The League of Women Voters and several mental health and other health care associations

Who’s against it? Most police organizations, Senator Feinstein, Governor Schwarzenegger and the previous three governors, Jerry Brown, Martin Sheen, and Mothers Against Drunk Driving, who call it the Drug Dealers’ Bill of Rights.

 


 

Bond Propositions: A billion dollars of ideas

Prop 1A: Safe, Reliable High-Speed Passenger Train Bond

Amount: $9.95 billion

Spent: At least $9 billion on specific construction projects for the high-speed train, the remaining $950 million on improvements to existing rail infrastructure.

Ongoing costs: $647 million a year in bond payments (total payback: $19.4 billion), approximately $1 billion a year to operate the train (expected to be covered by fares).

Paid back from: The General Fund until 2039 at the earliest, 2049 at the latest.

ImageWhat it buys: An electric rail line connecting San Francisco, Sacramento, and Los Angeles, capable of speeds up to 220 miles per hour.

Prop 3: Children’s Hospital Bond Act

Amount: $980 million

Spent: At least $784 million to eight hospitals that focus on children with acute illness, the remaining $196 million given to five children’s hospitals operated by the University of California.

Ongoing costs: $64 million a year in bond payments (total payback: $1.9 billion), given a 5 percent interest rate.

Paid back from: The General Fund until 2039.

What it buys: Money for children’s hospitals.

Prop 10: Alternative Fuel Vehicles and Renewable Energy Bonds.

Amount: $5 billion

Spent: $3.425 billion on customer rebates for cars with good gas mileage or engines that do not use gasoline, $1.25 billion on research and development of solar energy technology and other renewables, approximately $325 million in grants to cities and colleges related to renewable energy technology.

Ongoing costs: $335 million a year in bond payments (total payback: $10 billion), approximately $10 million a year in administrative costs.

Paid back from: The General Fund until 2039.

What it buys: Cash for anyone who buys an alternative fuel car, or a car that gets better than 45 miles per gallon, plus funding for renewable energy research and development.

Prop 12: Veterans’ Bond Act

Amount: $900 million

Spent: Entirely on funding the Cal-Vet program, which provides rebates to military veterans who buy homes.

Ongoing costs: $59 million a year in bond payments (total payback: $1.8 billion).

Paid back from: the homebuyers over a mortgage of 30 years.

What it buys: Readily available, low-interest home loans for approximately 3,600 military veterans.

Total cost to General Fund per year if you vote “yes” to all bond propositions: $1 billion.


Don't forget the local candidates.

See profiles of the people running in every major local race here.

What are those meters next to their pictures?

Read about our endors-o-meter, and endorsements in general, here.

 

Trackback(0)

TrackBack URI for this entry

Comments (8)

Subscribe to this comment's feed
FAMILY.CODE SECTION 297-297.5
0
Gays already have the same rights!

FAMILY.CODE
SECTION 297-297.5


297. (a) Domestic partners are two adults who have chosen to share
one another's lives in an intimate and committed relationship of
mutual caring.
(b) A domestic partnership shall be established in California when
both persons file a Declaration of Domestic Partnership with the
Secretary of State pursuant to this division, and, at the time of
filing, all of the following requirements are met:
(1) Both persons have a common residence.
(2) Neither person is married to someone else or is a member of
another domestic partnership with someone else that has not been
terminated, dissolved, or adjudged a nullity.
(3) The two persons are not related by blood in a way that would
prevent them from being married to each other in this state.
(4) Both persons are at least 18 years of age.
(5) Either of the following:
(A) Both persons are members of the same sex.
(B) One or both of the persons meet the eligibility criteria under
Title II of the Social Security Act as defined in 42 U.S.C. Section
402(a) for old-age insurance benefits or Title XVI of the Social
Security Act as defined in 42 U.S.C. Section 1381 for aged
individuals. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section,
persons of opposite sexes may not constitute a domestic partnership
unless one or both of the persons are over the age of 62.
(6) Both persons are capable of consenting to the domestic
partnership.
(c) "Have a common residence" means that both domestic partners
share the same residence. It is not necessary that the legal right
to possess the common residence be in both of their names. Two
people have a common residence even if one or both have additional
residences. Domestic partners do not cease to have a common
residence if one leaves the common residence but intends to return.



297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,
protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources
of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.
(b) Former registered domestic partners shall have the same
rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources
of law, as are granted to and imposed upon former spouses.
(c) A surviving registered domestic partner, following the death
of the other partner, shall have the same rights, protections, and
benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities,
obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes,
administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common
law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to
and imposed upon a widow or a widower.
(d) The rights and obligations of registered domestic partners
with respect to a child of either of them shall be the same as those
of spouses. The rights and obligations of former or surviving
registered domestic partners with respect to a child of either of
them shall be the same as those of former or surviving spouses.
(e) To the extent that provisions of California law adopt, refer
to, or rely upon, provisions of federal law in a way that otherwise
would cause registered domestic partners to be treated differently
than spouses, registered domestic partners shall be treated by
California law as if federal law recognized a domestic partnership in
the same manner as California law.
(f) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights
regarding nondiscrimination as those provided to spouses.
(g) No public agency in this state may discriminate against any
person or couple on the ground that the person is a registered
domestic partner rather than a spouse or that the couple are
registered domestic partners rather than spouses, except that nothing
in this section applies to modify eligibility for long-term care
plans pursuant to Chapter 15 (commencing with Section 21660) of Part
3 of Division 5 of Title 2 of the Government Code.
(h) This act does not preclude any state or local agency from
exercising its regulatory authority to implement statutes providing
rights to, or imposing responsibilities upon, domestic partners.
(i) This section does not amend or modify any provision of the
California Constitution or any provision of any statute that was
adopted by initiative.
(j) Where necessary to implement the rights of registered domestic
partners under this act, gender-specific terms referring to spouses
shall be construed to include domestic partners.
(k) (1) For purposes of the statutes, administrative regulations,
court rules, government policies, common law, and any other provision
or source of law governing the rights, protections, and benefits,
and the responsibilities, obligations, and duties of registered
domestic partners in this state, as effectuated by this section, with
respect to community property, mutual responsibility for debts to
third parties, the right in particular circumstances of either
partner to seek financial support from the other following the
dissolution of the partnership, and other rights and duties as
between the partners concerning ownership of property, any reference
to the date of a marriage shall be deemed to refer to the date of
registration of a domestic partnership with the state.
(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (1), for domestic partnerships
registered with the state before January 1, 2005, an agreement
between the domestic partners that the partners intend to be governed
by the requirements set forth in Sections 1600 to 1620, inclusive,
and which complies with those sections, except for the agreement's
effective date, shall be enforceable as provided by Sections 1600 to
1620, inclusive, if that agreement was fully executed and in force as
of June 30, 2005.

What's the deal? you already have this rights! This is isn't really about rights is it? It's about FORCE, forcing everyone else to embrace homosexuality~

THAT, my friend IS wrong! Keep private things private!

Yes! on 8
Yes on 8! , October 30, 2008
...
0
I normally stay out of comments, but since we've already printed the editorial, I guess there's nothing to lose by taking a position here:

You're correct that gays already have the same rights. That's what the California Supreme Court decided, and that's why it's already legal -- indeed, it has been legal, all along -- for gays to marry.

Keeping this status quo (by voting down Proposition 8 ) would keep private things private, by removing the government from the discussion of who can and cannot marry.

And, lastly, you are correct that this isn't about rights, but about force. Proposition 8 would force two people who love each other to not use the word marriage.

So, your arguments are all very true. You've just, inexplicably, drawn the wrong conclusions from them.

But then, so many people have been blinded by hatred and disgust on this issue that the "arguments" and "conclusions" drawn in support of Prop 8 usually come out twisted like this. All the more evidence that Prop 8 is the wrong idea, using the wrong logic, to write into the body of the California Constitution.
Chris J. Magyar , October 30, 2008
this is so typical
0
"But then, so many people have been blinded by hatred and disgust on this issue that the "arguments" and "conclusions" drawn in support of Prop 8 usually come out twisted like this. All the more evidence that Prop 8 is the wrong idea, using the wrong logic, to write into the body of the California Constitution."

you know Mr.Magyar this so typical of liberals, statements made in disagreement with your opinion are tagged as " blinded by hatred" and "disgust" and "twisted". You give yourself away revealing how you really feel about those how don't agree with you. We agree that same sex couples CAN marry in domestic partnership! Why call it something it really isn't and then try to force everyone to agree.

That is WRONG!

yes on 8!
fed up , October 30, 2008
...
0
Very well. Explain to me and everyone else why the already existing right of homosexuals to marry must be taken away, and please do so in a way that does not refer to homosexuality as sinful, aberrant, or something that must be kept away from the eyes/minds/ears of children (i.e. disgusting). And do so in a way that does not employ anger or fear.

Just to cover the bases, I will make my side of the argument in a way that does not force any religious person to accept homosexuality, and do so in a way that does not employ disgust or anger:

The long tradition of the United States has been to keep the church separate from the state, in order to preserve the freedom of all religions to practice. Part of that separation has entailed the practice of duplicate marriage, in which the rights of marriage granted by the state (tax breaks, family status, etc.) are given with one civic certificate, and any other conditions of marriage (sacramental, spiritual, etc.) are granted by the religion or religions of the parties concerned, with no state interference.

If the state does not interfere with the rights of any religion to grant marriage status, no religion should attempt to interfere with the state's right to grant marriage status.

There's a wrinkle: because the state is obligated to grant religions full freedom, the state also has an obligation to recognize any marriage granted by a religious institution, unless that union would break a law.

And here's another wrinkle: homosexuality is not illegal.

Therefore, the state should not interfere with any religion's decision to celebrate a gay marriage. Unless we as a society make homosexuality OR any religion that marries homosexual people illegal (and good luck getting that through the US Supreme Court).

One final wrinkle: Proposition 8, by specifying gender as a condition of legal marriage, does not take into account transgendered or multigendered citizens, thus leaving their ability to marry in a legal limbo. (Would a woman who has had a sex change to become a man be barred from marrying another woman? Would someone with both a penis and vagina be barred from marrying at all?) Therefore, even if you agree with the sentiment of Proposition 8, it is a bad constitutional amendment because its wording does not explicitly exclude/include the transgendered.

Now, if you can do make a similarly calm and reasoned argument, I will stand corrected and allow that there is at least one Proposition 8 supporter who bases their position on logic and reason.
Chris J. Magyar , October 30, 2008
Philisophical Argument in Support of Prop 8
0
"Now, if you can do make a similarly calm and reasoned argument, I will stand corrected and allow that there is at least one Proposition 8 supporter who bases their position on logic and reason."

Mr Magyar, I will try...........

I find it very interesting that you continue to mention religion, something I have not addressed. The fact is, I don't need to. Marriage between a man and a woman (or between a man and women) has been the norm for every culture in human history that has lasted more than a brief time. Even cultures that freely accepted bisexuality, such as the ancient Greeks and Romans, reserved marriage for heterosexual relationships only.

Why?

First, because no culture can escape the hard biological fact that the human race must continue, and it cannot continue without heterosexual coupling. Male on male and female on female sexuality will never produce children.

It's true that scientific intervention may produce children without coitus, but even scientific intervention requires heterosexual cooperation. And without constant scientific intervention or proselytizing, a homosexual society will die out in one generation.

Second, because what we know from research, and what the ancients knew from experience, is that children do best when they are raised by both genders.

Children do not normally die or become serial killers, and most do not even become homosexual, when they are raised by same-gender couples. Still, all else being equal, it is best for human development that children be raised by two people of different genders. The evidence, both scientific and anecdotal, is overwhelmingly in favor of children
Vote Yes on Proposition 8 , October 30, 2008
...
0
need for bi-gender parents.

Finally, societal support of heterosexual marriage is necessary at least because heterosexual relationships are so difficult, especially when conception, pregnancy, and child-rearing are part of the mix.

For this reason, most cultures have created a variety of benefits (including ritual benefits, such as weddings, and biological benefits such as granting the right for sexual expression) to encourage and sustain heterosexual marriages.

Why not just support everyone's right to marry whomever they want?

First, because the philosophy of doing so is unsustainable. There must be a limit to the philosophy, and whenever the limit is invoked, the philosophy self-destructs.

In the Proposition 8 debate, one idea is that all consenting adults should be allowed to marry whomever they want of whichever gender they want. That idea, however, includes limitations based on consent and age, while lifting only the limitation on gender; this, however, immediately limits the idea that everyone should be able to marry whomever they want.

If the only criterion for marriage is that people marry whom they want, the first, most logical step after same-gender marriage would be to allow polygamy, including same-gender polygamy. While heterosexual polygyny has its supporters (it, at least, produces children and has been practiced by respected individuals such as Abraham and Israel), hetero- or homosexual polyandry, or homosexual polygyny certainly could not be denied.

Given the philosophy that we should marry whomever we want, then why should incestuous marriage be forbidden among consenting adults? (The Romans allowed it.)

Clearly the philosophy doesn
Vote Yes on Proposition 8- con , October 30, 2008
...
0
Mr. Anonymous Yes on Prop 8,

Thank you. This is indeed a well-reasoned and legitimate argument in favor of Proposition 8, and I grant that you have found an avenue of argument that does not involve hatred or intolerance. I stand corrected, and apologize for insinuating that all Proposition 8 supporters have made their decision based on vile emotion.

Not to say that your argument has swayed me, only that you have indeed made a legitimate argument.

There are two points you've made which I wish to address. First, that the institution of marriage must exist, as sanctioned by society, in order to encourage procreation. Second, that a philosophical acceptance of homosexual marriage also allows for a philosophical acceptance of polygamy and incest. It appears you were also furthering a point or making a new one that our comment program somehow cut off ... I apologize for this technical difficulty and hope that you'll try again to air those views.

As to the first point: while I agree that the institution of marriage evolved as a civilized and principled attempt to create favorable rearing practices for children, there is little historical precedent (in the long view) of enforcing a fertility clause upon marriage. Aside from royalty, marriage has not generally been seen as a means of producing children. (However, I will admit, marriage has often been a result of having already produced children -- even in our time, it is generally agreed that man, upon making a woman pregnant, should feel a moral obligation to remain in the woman's life, and ideally marry her, if she wishes.) In the absence of laws dictating that marriages must be fertile to be valid, however, I don't think the fertility argument justifies a gender precondition to marriage.

Add in the fact that many homosexual couples have adopted children and reared them successfully, and I believe marriage for all sexualities would only enhance the benefits of a stable relationship for the purposes of childcare. (Full disclosure: I am the adopted child of a heterosexual couple, and can at least attest to the positive benefits of adoption, in comparison to orphanage.)

You also seem to make some sidelong arguments that there are special benefits to being raised by a stable heterosexual couple to the exclusion of all other couples, and insinuate, if I understand correctly, that gay parents would tend to produce gay children. I don't believe that there are any scientifically-conducted studies that prove this, and given the short amount of time that society has even tolerated open homosexuality, much less homosexual parenting, I doubt any such study could have been produced yet. However, I see no reason not to investigate this question. Of course, doing so would mean allowing homosexuals to marry and adopt, foster, or have children ... so that is yet another, scientific argument against the passage of Proposition 8 at this particular time.

As for the "slippery slope" argument that the allowance of homosexual marriage might lead to societal acceptance of polygamy and incest: I believe these are different questions. At this point in time, we are pondering the meaning of gender in a relationship, and whether gender should determine the amount of acceptance society has toward love. Number (i.e. the amount of partners one can marry) is yet another question. And relation (i.e., how closely one's blood and genes are to the person one loves) is yet another.

At this point in time, I do not see a strong lobby petitioning for polygamy, nor incest. The historical record is certainly iffy on polygamy (how many people, throughout the millennia, have indulged in a sanctioned or accepted affair outside of marriage?), but rather firm on incest (though the level of acceptable relation has shifted -- it was accpetable as recently as 100 years ago to marry a first cousin in many parts of the Western world).

Let's cross those bridges when we come to them. The California Supreme Court has not ruled to sanction polygamy, nor incest. It has ruled, only, to sanction homosexual marriage. Once again, I find Proposition 8, with its limiting language, to decide on other possibilities for the word 'marriage' prematurely, before these things are even debated.

So, should the state mandate that marriages have the possibility of fertility? I say no, and the law, I believe, also says no (as you pointed out in regards to domestic partnerships, which are recognized equally for homosexual and heterosexual couples, regardless of whether or not they've produced or adopted children). And will the defeat of Proposition 8 open the door to polygamy and incest? I ask, how much polygamy and incest do you see in California? Compare this to how many people in our state who identify as homosexual. Yes, the definition of 'normal' might be changing on you, but anyone who has spent significant time in Santa Cruz, San Francisco, or any other part of the world at any time of history must admit that homosexuality is prevelant enough to be considered, if not 'normal', at the very least 'natural'.

Any other definition is merely cultural, not legal or scientific.
Chris J. Magyar , October 30, 2008
thanks
0
Mr. Magyar,

I just wanted to thank you for a rational and calm dialog about this issue.....I wish you all the best~

peace
unamed , November 07, 2008

Write comment

smaller | bigger
security image
Write the displayed characters

busy


Add this page to your favorite Social Bookmarking websites
 
Move
Display Hide | Show

News

Topics
Top Stories

What's different about California's budget?

What's different about California's budget?

Comparing the Golden State’s tax structure to other states

The Green Station’s Zenn car is here

The Green Station’s Zenn car is here

The new electric vehicle hopes to bring some om on the range

Town Hall with Sam Farr

The new stimulus bill, and holding Bushies accountable

The city of Santa Cruz goes green in 2009

An audacious New Year's resolution includes every citizen's help

A proposed ordinance to stop pesticides

A local committee’s plan to fight bulk application in 2009

Can native fish species be saved?

King Street may become bike boulevard

Move
Display Hide | Show

A-E

Topics
Top Stories

Eight Tens @ Eight is back

Eight Tens @ Eight is back

Brace yourself for the 14th annual grab bag of theater

The Empty Mirror delivers many twists

The Empty Mirror delivers many twists

Cabrillo's J. Sydney Jones provides a nice reflection in his new novel

This Murmuring, by Joseph Stroud

Joseph Stroud is the author of five books of poetry; the most recent is “Of This World: New and...

Speed freaks driving beaters

When life gives you lemons, race them

Anarchists open a coffee shop downtown

The brand new SubRosa Project is also a bookstore for the movement

The Poetry of T.C. Marshall

Polly Grose pens captivating 'London Scrapbook'

Move
Display Hide | Show

Music

Topics
Top Stories

Dirty Penny

Dirty Penny

The local hair bangers bring the theater of the '80s back to life

Orgone bridges hip hop and vintage soul

Orgone bridges hip hop and vintage soul

The band fans the funk flames with sex appeal to boot

Sourgrass is greener

From backyard band to Santa Cruz bar stars, Sourgrass brings on the funk

Local musicians make CD to benefit Tannery

The mammoth compilation hopes to help the local arts collective get the scene seen

Loves in Heat gets carried away

This year's festival gets a boost from Keith Petrocelli

Mudhoney rocks harder than ever

Christian Scott has jazz talent in his blood

Move
Display Hide | Show

Movies

Topics
Top Stories