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Say a Little Prayer | Print |  E-mail
Written by Amy Coombs   
Wednesday, 31 December 2008

Prayer cover Temple Memories of the Mormon Church: A Response To Prop 8

 

"You can’t mistake the gospel for the people," my mother used to say. It was the mantra of my childhood.

    One Sunday I was given a small yellow chastity box to keep in my purse when I went on dates. If I had impure thoughts, the bow-tied cardboard box would remind me of my “virtue” and “true worth as awoman.” It would help me remember that my chastity belonged to my future husband—this box was for him to unwrap on my wedding night, said my church leader.

    As I rode home that afternoon with my parents, they admitted that the chastity box was a bit much. “You can’t mistake the gospel for the people,” my mother said. Even though it was easier for women to deny their urges, and important for us to prevent both ourselves andour dates from breaking God’s commandments, the scriptures didn’t technically say anything about chastity boxes.

    When we stopped at an intersection in our blossom-lined middle-class neighborhood, my father made a joke. He handed me a penny that sat in a cup holder. “Just keep this in between your legs instead,” he said. Both of my parents laughed. Apparently pennies are appropriate, even when chastity boxes are just plain silly.

    It was the ’90s in the conservative suburbs of Salt Lake City. A lot of Mormon women had entered the workforce, and a small minority of churchgoers had Sierra Club memberships and recycling bins. Yet while my parents’ politics occasionally crossed into “leftist” territory, they agreed that sex was becoming normalized by the mainstream media, and that youth needed instruction.

    While my parents debated our local church leaders when they said women need not prioritize advanced education, and they questioned our neighbor when he said “we should squeeze the last bit of juice out of the earth in order to escalate environmental destruction and thus Christ’s second coming,” they were surprisingly quiet—and even sometimes contradictory—as the chastity lessons progressed.

    Sometimes I got away with wearing a tank top around the house, and sometimes my mother asked me to change into something more modest. While video rental stores were editing Kate Winslet’s breasts out of Titanic, my mother bought unedited copies of the film—yet we still held a blanket over the TV while fast forwarding through the controversial scene. My father once exploded when I brought home Sally Potter’s film adaptation of “Orlando.” I genuinely didn’t see how the movie violated Mormon standards—the film was not about sex. My father had not read Virginia Wolf’s classic book or seen the movie, but he told me to never bring “erotica” into his house again. Apparently the word was printed on the back of the VHS cover.

    A few years later I was called into the chapel with the rest of the young women in the ward. The bishop had received a strong feeling, a prompting that he should deliver a special message about chastity. He played a film that told us to be stronger than dirt. The prophet (I believe it was Spencer W. Kimball) chimed in as well. “Masturbation is the introduction to the more serious sin of exhibitionism and the gross sin of homosexuality,” he said.

    When the movie ended, the bishop asked us to evaluate our lives and actions. If we had violated sacred chastity laws, he was there to help us begin the repentance process. My mind raced through every PG-13 film I had watched—every “dirty” thought and innocent moment with my (so far only) boyfriend. Was I the reason for the bishop’s prompting? Of course the lesson sparked a wave of confessions—even one from my virgin self.

Homophobia: The Church or the People?

Of course for every religion that teaches homosexuality is a sin, there is a long list that celebrate LBGT relationships.

    “I think it’s important that this debate is not framed as religious people against gays and lesbians,” says Alice Kessler, Government Affairs director at Equality California. “There are a lot of faith leaders in California and beyond who support gay marriage, and want to marry their same-sex congregants, and there are a lot of questions about religious freedom, and whether these churches and synagogues should be limited in practicing their faith.”

    None of us wants to take a stab at another person’s religious beliefs, or religion as a larger concept for that matter. Everyone needs to be free to do their own thing, and no one wants to be the social police. This puts California in a sticky situation. We must now mediate between our religious tolerance and acceptance of diversity, and our right to participate in relationships that defy dominant religious views. Here the line between the Gospel (or the teachings of an institution) and the way individual and collective members apply these beliefs begins to blur.

    In 1980 the prophet Spencer Kimball told the youth of the church: “Numerous disasters have occurred in mid-ocean by collisions of ships …numerous people have gone to watery graves. I believe you young peopleare wholesome and basically good and sound; but you, too, are traveling oceans which to you are at least partially uncharted, where there are shoals and rocks … and where great disasters can come unless warnings are heeded.”

    The metaphor was soon expanded to include a conversation about morality and homosexuality. “The fact that some governments and some churches and numerous corrupted individuals have tried to reduce such behavior from criminal offense to personal privilege does not changethe nature nor the seriousness of the practice,” writes Kimball.

    Even my “never been kissed” gay-leaning friends had their bedroom doors taken off the hinges—presumably to prevent them from masturbating. I put together a project for homeless teens in college, and was told by an advisor that homosexuality was evil, and a grave sin. His comments came when I asked the executive director of the gay and lesbian center to join my project’s advisory board.

    Even if the “gospel” of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not directly instruct people to behave this way, concepts of morality create challenging realities andpotential realities for gay and lesbian youth. “There is no place where you aresafe,” one bisexual friend told me.

    Shock therapy is perhaps the most extreme example, but even thisis often debunked with “gospel versus the people” arguments.

    “I personally know of shock therapy cases from across the country,” says David Melson of the Los Angeles-based Affirmation—agroup for gay and lesbian Mormons and ex-Mormons. “It’s used more in Utah than outside of the state, but I know of cases from elsewhere. There is a company called Evergreen–it’s not a part of the church, but they receive leadership and funding from the church. This is who does the shock therapy.”

    Yet my Mormon friends are quick to point out that shock therapy survivors are hard to find—I could get none to go on the record for this story. And “shock therapy” is not directly mentioned in any bishop’s handbook—a published guidance that local leaders in the churchfollow.

    On the other hand, the Mormon Church has not dissociated itself from the heinous treatment. No statement has been made denying the church’s use of “shock therapy,” and when I asked press officers at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS), they opted “not to participate” in my story.

    It’s thus unclear whether the church orchestrates the purported treatment, or if “confused” teens are sometimes sent to see a therapistfor less physical forms of reprogramming, and happen to find the wrongtreatment center. Of course if you are the one who’s genitalia is being electrocuted, it doesn’t matter whether “shock therapy” is a formal church program, or the freakish byproduct of a homophobic community that believes homosexuality can be cured. And even if there is no covert arm of the church that oversees genital electrocution, the stories that filter through are strikingly thematic.

The Sex Police

When I asked the practicing Mormons still in my life about the coverage of the Proposition 8 issue, they were quick to remind that the church views any kind of immorality as a sin. “We don’t pick on gays—anyone that performed an immoral act would have to answer for it,” said one person who wishes to remain anonymous.

    For example, Mitt Romney, the Mormon presidential candidate who ran against McCain in the 2008 Republican primary, was recently criticized for profiting from pornography sales at the Marriott International hotel chain. An editorial published by the church-owned Desert Morning News claims Romney took more than $25,000 a year instock for serving on the board of Marriott, and that he did nothing toreverse the offering of pornography on hotel room TVs.

    In a PBS documentary on the subject, Brigham Young University Professor Daniel Peterson says “... the standard for a homosexual is the same as the standard for a heterosexual. No sexual relations except within marriage. And if you violate that, that is one of the most serious things the church will look at. In that sense, there’s no discrimination; there’s a single standard that if a heterosexual male violates his marriage covenants, he’s likely to be disciplined, whether it’s with a man or a woman.”

    Is it somehow less discriminatory to view homosexuality as “just another morality violation?” The easy answer is “homosexuality is not an optional lifestyle—it’s not something people can change throughrepression, denial or repentance.” But in the Mormon religion,heterosexuality itself is an entirely different construct, and is intensely policed.

    In a recent issue of JEN—a “modest fashion magazine” published by members of the Mormon Church, and not the LDS religion itself—a young girl quotes the former Mormon prophet Ezra Taft Benson. “Guard your virtue as you would your very life,” he said.

    “So if someone was trying to kill you,” writes the author “would you just stick around and see what happens? Of course not! You would run. That’s exactly what we should do when faced with a situation that’s getting out of hand—run away!” Later she contradicts decades’ worth of safe-sex data, and says that “one consequence” of immorality is contracting AIDS, “which in most cases leads to death.” She never mentions the option of using a condom, asking your partner to take anSTD screen, or even getting to know your partner’s history before engaging in “the life-threatening deed.”

    Like a famous Mormon pamphlet which reads “next to the crime of murder comes the sin of sexual impurity,” the article conflates sexual intercourse with the most feared of all human experiences. This is what people with “normal” heterosexual desire have to grapple with. Imagine how teenagers with same-sex feelings view themselves.

    A friend of mine was expelled from a Mormon college two weeks before graduation after her boyfriend confessed they were having sex. He graduated on time with no penalties.

    Another friend went through a church court hearing after she confessed to having an extra marital affair. To judge my friend’s level of indiscretion, a room full of older white men in business suits asked for details. Was she wearing black or lace lingerie, was she on top or was he? The humiliating questions continued for more than an hour, while her disappointed husband waited outside closed doors.

    In the Mormon Church, one person’s witch hunt is another’s loving repentance, and when sexuality, gender and sexual preference intersect in so many complex ways, it’s sometimes difficult to distinguish one form of discrimination from the other.

    “Same-sex marriage bars are the deepest form of du jour sex discrimination, and they are founded on the notion of rigid gender roles:  a woman cannot have a truly fulfilling relationship with children, except with a man, and vice versa,” wrote Yale professor William N. Eskridge Jr. in an email.

    But hasn’t this always been the larger American story of homophobia—even before the term existed, Eskridge suggests that America has always reacted to the “crime against nature” based on a fear of pollution “especially when sexuality, gender role and racial identities are combined,” and based on the need to create symbolic others who are “degraded opposites.”  

    In his book “Dishonorable Passions: Sodomy Laws in America 1861-2003,” Eskridge argues that the state of California, despite its historic hubs of transgendered and homosexual communities (not that these terms were used back in the day), rarely transcended these patterns of discrimination.

    In 1909 California enacted a law providing for the sterilization of any person convicted of two or more sexual offenses if he or she also showed evidence of being a “moral or sexual pervert,” and by 1930,“almost seven thousand Californians were sterilized, many of them prostitutes and homosexuals.” Despite a 1925 peak, sodomy arrests in Los Angeles were consistent with those in New York, St. Louis andWashington D.C. Historically sodomy laws sometimes included cunnilingus and “perverted” lesbian practices.

    In an email, Eskridge wrote, “the politics of disgust that was the basis for opposing sodomy reform has, in a diluted form, had an influence on the Prop 8 campaign.  For the main example, LGBT people have traditionally been demonized in California and other states as “anti-family” and “predatory” toward children; in the current campaign, a kinder, gentler version of this trope appears in the Prop 8 commercials warning California parents that the Supreme Court decision would force schools to teach that gay marriage is just as good as straight marriage.  (California law does not require what the proponents say it does.)”

    Yet the Mormons that blasted me with emails during the Prop 8 campaign are certain their gospel is no more homophobic than they are sexist. Just as God loves gays, he views women as equal to men (even though they must fulfill drastically different roles in the church, community and home). Never mind the differential economic opportunities that accompany these disparities, and the many identities women and homosexuals can never legally explore. In theory, like all Christian religions, Mormonism is based on “inclusion” (anyone can come unto Christ and act like a Mormon—we are all equally welcome to keep the commandments and pay a full tithing, and participate in the blessings of the gospel).

Policing The Other

During my sister’s wedding, my parents’ bishop lost his temper. We had never met, but according to church policy I had to send my resignation letter to the bishop that held my records. Weeks earlier he had received notice that I no longer considered myself a member. He was offended by my tone. My few non-Mormon relatives still talk about the experience today, astounded that he would get so angry at a wedding, but my parents remember things very differently—he seemed delighted to have the chance to speak with me, and really seemed to enjoy the conversation.

    In the popular Mormon film God’s Army, the lead character tries to stop a new missionary in training from heading home early. He throws the missionary against a wall at the bus station, and yells “You know it’s true, I’ve heard you say it.”

    I knew so many missionaries that signed up for their two years of evangelical service under great pressure from family and friends—serving a mission is not optional in many families. Missions are rigorous—you wake up early, you can’t watch cartoons, and only speak to your family two times a year on the phone. Is it appropriate to attack someone that wants to go home? My mother almost cried when I voiced my opinion. “He did that, Amy, because mission leaders love their companions and trainees enough to stop them from making life altering mistakes.”

    In the Mormon Church, one person’s loving intervention is another’s institutional abuse.

    Take the time my Sunday school teacher tied me up in front of the class (to make a point about the bonds of sin). I was able to break the first string she tied around my body, but as she wrapped the entire spool of yarn around me it got a little harder. One temptation isn’t hard to avoid, but if we keep listening to Satan, we open the door to transgression. Our dirty thoughts turn into dirty actions.

    As I struggled to break free of the ball of yarn that had been wrapped around me, my teacher passed out decorative index cards to the class. We were asked to write down five small temptations to vanquish from our mind during the next week. Afterward, we went around the room and read our list to the rest of the class. 

    Mormon wards—or congregations—are geographically determined. This means you are stuck with your chastity box-distributing bondage teachers, even if you would prefer to go to your friend’s ward instead. You can’t choose your leaders any more than you can wear black lingerie instead of garments and skip out on your mission.  And people who believe they need this freedom are viewed as weak minded, susceptible to temptation and selfish. Leaving the church breaks apart families, and means you will never spend eternity with your parents and siblings.

    You grow up going to church with your family, and your neighbors. You take piano lessons from your Sunday school teacher, who then later becomes the bishop’s wife. As she also lives down the street, she knows if you kiss your boyfriend in the car, or wear “hippie clothes” to school. She knows if you go for walks with a girl that confessed to having lesbian feelings.

    This means that if you are gay, or if you have gay friends, you will likely spend a lot of time trying to cover up, or prove your virtue (which in turn determines your “self worth”).

Who is ‘The Other’?

The church is widely viewed to be on the offense rather than defense in their support of Prop 8, but even this point is hotly contested. Many Mormons believe they have been maligned and misrepresented—even discriminated against.

    “There were a lot of contributions to the “Yes on 8 campaign”from individuals who are members of the church,” says Kessler. “How the contributions were encouraged or supported [by the LDS religion] is adifferent question.” Reports indicate that much of the funding camefrom out-of-state, as did countless volunteers in favor of traditional marriage. “There is no doubt that the Mormon Church played a big role.”

    As the LDS press office declined to participate in my article, I was not able to verify the amount spent on Proposition 8-related activities. Differing accounts range from just under $3,000 to several million—all tax exempt contributions from individual members, who are commanded to pay 10 percent of their income in tithing.

    In a recent article Dennis Wyatt, of the Manteca Bulletin, says that Mormons are being singled out. “Why aren’t the Catholics being targeted like the Mormons by those seeking revenge for losing at the ballot box? It’s easy. The ‘No on 8’ forces that are foaming at the mouth vowing to damage the Mormons are bigger bigots than they claim the Mormons are when it comes to blessing same-sex marriage,” he says.

    In an editorial published by the Mormon Times, Lee Benson writes that the absence of marriage amendments is itself a form of discrimination (against those who prefer marriage to be defined between one man and one woman). In other words, Mormons believe they are defending themselves against discrimination. Passing laws and constitutional amendments is a defense against oppression—prohibiting any type of marriage but their own, and normalizing Mormon values is a defense action.

    It’s an interesting rhetorical twist. Discrimination is somehow defined as the absence of total Mormon domination. The logic implies “unless we can make everyone like ourselves, we are being discriminated against.” In this light, Mormons were on the defense long ago, and Proposition 8 is a response to symbolic assault committed against the church by countless gay marriages.

    “California won’t let it go,” continues Benson. “The whining is enough to make a soccer player envious. Lawyers are headed to court to block the proposition. Others are demanding that the vote go back on the ballot in 2010. Proponents of Prop. 8 are being singled out for abuse by opponents. Sore losing is having a field day.”

    In a Nov. 14 press release the LDS church announced that places of worship had been targeted by opponents of Proposition 8 with demonstrations, and in some cases vandalism. “These are not the actions that are worthy of the democratic ideals of our nation,” reads the press release.

    There is no excuse for vandalizing another person’s place of worship—ever. But here even protests—constitutionally protected by First Amendment rights—are a violation of democratic ideals. If the church prevents you from marrying the person you love, and you speak out, you are somehow acting with discrimination. You are acting oppressively.

    This all begs a lot of interesting questions: Is gay marriage an issue of religious freedom, or freedom from religion?  Was the separation of church and state established to keep the government out of religion, or religion out of the government? Are concepts of American democracy based on protection of minority rights, or majority rule? Is an egalitarian community one that provides all parties with an equal opportunity for family, employment and safety, or is it the domination of one belief system over the others?

    “If we can so easily legislate away minority rights by a majority vote, we are in a lot of trouble,” says Kessler, “There are a lot of minorities whose rights could be taken away—it’s not just gays and lesbians. A corner stone of our constitution is to protect minority groups from the tyranny of the majority.”

    In reality, no one is threatening members of the Latte Day Saints faith. They are free to form traditional nuclear families based on conservative gender roles, or not. Those of us in Northern California live amongst druids that garden in full costume and nudists that deliver wheatgrass on a bike—we certainly don’t care if someone puts on a suit and coat and goes to church. People are free to use words like “joyous, damnable, blessed and endureth” as much as they want, and they can certainly believe Joseph Smith, the founding leader of the Mormon religion, saw the heavenly father and Jesus in a grove of trees.

    The Mormon Church is even free to blame homosexuality for the fall of great cities and civilizations, and reduce same-sex relationships to a form of sex addiction. They can say that homosexuality and extra marital sex are building blocks of suicide, the fabric of distorted personalities, and the wounds that scar and decapitate individuals and families. The question is whether we are similarly free to assert our concepts of reality.

    We have learned the hard way that homophobia is as much a reflection of people’s fears and hate as the social conditions that set standards for public discourse.

    My roommate for example is not Mormon, but belongs to the Christian Scientist religion. I never heard a homophobic comment escape his lips until he hosted a Republican houseguest from college—a woman of his same faith. After his friend made a few innocent political jabs directed toward my “liberal” political interests, my roommate suddenly turned into an unidentifiable person. “Hey, wouldn’t it be funny if next election time liberals try to legalize marriage between a personand their dog,” he said. “That’s probably the next thing that would have happened if Prop 8 had lost—people would be marrying their pets next.”  After I challenged him, he continued on. Marriage to cousins would follow marriage to animals and same-sex unions.

    Gay rights communities have historically not targeted religious values. Instead, they have tried to affirm diversity. Yet Prop 8 has demonstrated that it’s nearly impossible to tiptoe around religious controversy. How do we have conversations about religion, and with religious people without violating our own commitment to social justice? How do we uphold the non-violent spirit of diversity while wrestling with a religion that believes it’s the only truth, the only way, and is willing to alter the constitution to assert domination? How does plurality “ethically” wrestle with monolithic forces of the universe?

The battle over Proposition 8 continues this month as parties on both side of the controversy prepare their final legal briefs. Six lawsuits were filed with the California Supreme Court in challenge of the controversial Proposition 8, which amends the state constitution toconsider marriage as a heterosexual act, and exclude opportunities for gays to marry.

After the proposition passed by a narrow 2% this November, the Supreme Court expedited a hearing. Oral arguments are currently planned for March, although no date has yet been set. The law requires the court to rule within a 90-day period following the hearing.

According to California Attorney General Edmund G. Brown, the 18,000 marriages that took place before Proposition 8 passed are still valid.

Only Connecticut and Massachusetts currently allow same sex marriage, although New York has said it will recognize marriages from other jurisdictions.

In the most recent US Census there are 90,000 same sex couples in California, and advocacy groups say that a large number of these want to get married. Other couples from Oregon and Washington would be likely to travel to California if same sex marriage is permitted.

While Proposition 8 passed by 500,000 votes, this margin represents “incredible movement on the issue over time,” says Alice Kessler, Government Affairs Director at the Sacramento-based advocacy group Equality California. In 2000 Prop 22 passed by 20 more points than Proposition 8—the initiative prevented California from recognizing same sex marriage, but did not amend the constitution. Prop 22 was found to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 2008—while suits were filed in 2004, it took years for the case to work through the appeals courts.

In the case of Proposition 8, the legal debate will start at the top.“I don’t know if this is a good or bad sign,” says Kessler, “but young people are even more supportive of marriage equality today than their former counterparts, and time and history are on our side.”

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... , Lowest rated comment [Show]
Rationalization , Lowest rated comment [Show]
Not exactly... , Lowest rated comment [Show]
Good Post
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Amy I really enjoyed reading your post... It shows you put a lot of thought into it and you voice your ideas well....
Heather1973 , December 31, 2008
Education is extremely important for everyone , Lowest rated comment [Show]
Don't Use Yourself As A Datapoint , Lowest rated comment [Show]
You go girl
0
I can verify that there are still people that believe LDS women don’t need an education. I’ve heard the elders in our ward say that families should prioritize missions and advanced degrees for the boys above college for the girls. For example, one man I know believes we should send girls to a cheap state school to pay for a boy’s mission if needed. Mormon families still have three, four, five or six kids, and they all hit missions, college and weddings at the same time. Girls get ripped off because of this. I’ve seen it with my own friends. People will shell out $300 a month to pay for their son’s mission, and even pay for his friends missions if their families are poor. But they won’t pay even $100 to help their daughters move out of the house and live on campus while going to school.
Someone from the same part of Utah , January 01, 2009
Also...
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As a technicality, the Mormon church did change it’s position on women and education. They used to say that women should focus on starting a family right away, but now they say that college is also important and that families can be delayed for a few years to make an education possible. But a college degree is still largely believed to help women become better mothers, and it's not as much of a priority for women. Most women are not taught they can, should or will be serious bread winners. Their ability to contribute financially is a safety net to fall back on. The types of degrees mormon women end up with aren’t generally as employable because of this. Instead women focus on degrees that will help them run a house, like communication or design.
Someone from the same part of Utah , January 01, 2009
euqality
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LGBT people in England, Belgium, Canada, Spain and the Netherlands all have equal rights, including marriage. Society has managed to accept it and adapt. We should learn something from "BisexualMingle dotcom", many members here working for GLBT rights. And there are about 100 members per day and they are very active. And if you often are online, you may find what you are looking more easily.
Jayce , January 01, 2009 | url
Point: Mormons are not Christians
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To the point made: "In theory, like all Christian religions, Mormonism is based on “inclusion” (anyone can come unto Christ and act like a Mormon—we are all equally welcome to keep the commandments and pay a full tithing, and participate in the blessings of the Gospel). ", it is important to note that Mormonism is NOT Christianity. Mormons practice a religion markedly different than Christianity. Theologically speaking, Muslims are closer to Christians than Mormons are.
Matt C , January 01, 2009
Separate Church and State
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The Mormons are free to waste tons of money on whatever causes they wish to (within the bounds of political activism and the applicable tax codes, of course)...I'm all for religious freedom. However, now that it's apparent that civil marriages are really just a state sponsored religious ceremony, I think it's time that we get on to the real battle - the end of state sponsored marriage. It's not about gay, straight, Mormon or Christian Scientist...Why is the state in the game of regulating this kind of behavior?
Tom Scribner , January 01, 2009
...
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormonism) is a Christian religion. Because Mormons believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ and consider Him to be the way to salvation, they are clearly a Christian denomination. It is true that they are not an orthodox denomination (they are neither Protestant, Catholic, nor Eastern Orthodox), because they don't accept the post-New Testament creeds, but their Christ-centered theology clearly qualifies them for the Christian label.

Most objective scholars agree that Mormons are Christian. Consider this quote from an academic book entitled "Anthology of World Scriptures" by Robert E. Van Voorst.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints see themselves as Christian, and most experts in comparative religions would view this labeling as basically correct. That they accept the Christian Bible as their first cannon is a good indicator of this. Moreover, outsiders to [Christianity], such as Buddhists, would almost certainly recognize them as belonging to the stream of Christian tradition."

Likewise, a recent poll showed that the majority of Americans believe that Mormons are Christians.
JDD , January 01, 2009 | url
... , Lowest rated comment [Show]
Just the facts, please! , Lowest rated comment [Show]
Proposition 8 Does not Equal Hate. , Lowest rated comment [Show]
... , Lowest rated comment [Show]
...
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Excellent article (which obviously hit a nerve with Mormon readers, which only makes this article more interesting). I find it quite thoughtful and nuanced despite criticisms to the contrary. The fact that Ms. Coombs writes from her own direct experience is precisely what makes this piece so powerful. And it is even-handed, not malicious or judgmental in tone.

Thank you for one of the best articles ever to appear in the Good Times.
Terencia , January 01, 2009
Rose colored glasses , Lowest rated comment [Show]
Great Article Describing Your Personal Experiences
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Ms. Coombs,

I understand that these experiences happened in your life and that your commentary is based on your own experiences. It is unfortunate that the majority of these people posting somehow feel attacked by your personal life experiences. I wonder why people feel the need to attack an individual for discussing their own experiences. What we believe is typically based on our experience. I do not consider myself a religious person but I have values that are very important to me. When I read comments like the ones below:

"You twisted the details to fit your own theories"
"I feel sorry for you....What will you do when the Savior comes?...Choose the Right."
"Sorry, you lost me early on; apparently editors are in short supply around here"
"Don't use yourself as a datapoint"
And many more...that I got tired of reading due to their negativity.....

I can't help but ask myself....if you are confident in your own beliefs and religion, why get defensive? AGAIN, she is not basing it on your experience, her neighbor's experience or her friend's experience. The experience is hers. I hope this redundancy will get across to those who feel they can change her beliefs or make her feel bad for her experiences by attacking her verbally. I applaud those that can think with an open mind and understand that the world is full of diversity that must be appreciated. If it weren't for people voicing their beliefs based on their own experiences(or using themselves as datapoints), women may not have the right to vote (the list goes on and on).

I felt you were able to voice your opinions very respectfully and I think a lot of people can appreciate your strength in being able to discuss these hardships in your life. I know it is not easy to discuss real life experience and it is such a shame that you are met with so much pessimism.


Anonymous , January 01, 2009
... , Lowest rated comment [Show]
Please
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You all criticize the “anecdotal” nature of this article, but the Mormon church itself is based on nothing but personal stories. Even though the church claims the book of mormon is true, it’s basically nothing but a collection of personal stories supposedly written long ago. Personal testimonies are circulated in sacrament meeting and people tell the stories their ancestors told their grandparents. These narratives include visitations from angels and even followers of Satan. Why are these stories ok, but this article is not? Anecdotes are ok as long as they support Mormon mythology, but not ok if they tell a different type of story? The Mormon position on Prop 8 is a good example. The position is entirely based on anecdotal evidence that one version of family is better than another. Church leaders often say their anecdotes are the word of god. At least Amy is honest about the personal nature of her experiences.

Also, we don’t know that the author is an exmormon, or that she is a lesbian, or that she was ever a bad mormon, or that she was never a church leader.

Someone from the same part of Utah , January 01, 2009
One last thing
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You have all made some pretty amazing assumptions about the writer. She never wrote that the Mormon church discourages women from getting an education. She wrote that her parents debated a man in her ward after he made this point. And you can’t tell me there aren't people in authority voicing these views to young women. Mormon women don't have equal job and educational opportunities even they are encouraged to go to college. Most women go to BYU to find a husband, and many drop out of school to put their husbands through advanced degree programs.

FYI, There are mormons that didn’t like the church’s involvement in Prop 8, and there are many strait people that care deeply about this cause. The militancy of the above postings only reifies the common view that mormons are angry, in-your-face, conservative and self righteous.

The author sys that she tried to get comments from the LDS church, but they declined to participate in the story. They had a fair chance to offer their opinions. The Mormon side of things dominates KSL and every news station in Utah, as well as much of the coverage in Southern California. Liberals are so inclusive that it’s very easy for Mormons to get their view out. As these postings show, the other side is not so open to listening, or to allowing us an equal chance to voice our opinions.

Sister of someone , January 01, 2009
A thought provoking, well written article. Thank you Good Times!
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What ever happened to "all men are created equal"? It is a sad chapter in U.S. history when the majority passes laws to reduce the rights of the minority. It feels like we are going backwards. After all, wasn't it less then 100 years ago that women had fewer rights than men (the right to vote for women was only gained when the Nineteen Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was passed in 1920) and and less than 70 years ago black children couldn't go to school with white children in many states (all states were required to create equal education opportunites for all children in the 1954 Supreme Court ruling onBrown v. Board of Education). I believe we should allows be moving forward in making the United States of America a more just place to live. Discrimination against people that are female, people that have dark skin, or people that are attracted to people of the same sex is unamerican. I certainly pray that the courts rule that this amendment to the California constitution is unconstitutional.
hob , January 01, 2009
...
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Religions shouldn’t be allowed to determine who gets to have family and who doesn’t. My gay and lesbian friends went through a lot just to come out of the closet, and many lost community and family in the process. How horrible that they can’t legally start over and form their own families and communities. By denying the right to marry, the Mormon church is saying that gays and lesbians aren’t worthy of family or true belonging. How much deeper can they drive the knife? Can you go any lower as a religion? As the Mormon Church teaches, families are the basis for a strong community. Perhaps this is what they are afraid of. They gay community will have family and be stronger because of it. Luckily there are more enlightened faiths out there, but sadly the Mormon church feels it should prevent them from exorcising their beliefs. They aren’t just homophobic, they are anti religion (at least anti any religion that differs from them).

siba , January 01, 2009
Get your facts straight about shock therapy , Lowest rated comment [Show]
Mob Rule is not the Way in the USA
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The first comment I read stated: "Unfortunately, our country is not "founded" that way. We are not a godless society. It was never meant for God to be removed from our lives. Instead, we vote. However, unfair it seems to gay people "in love"....they lost. Fair and square."

First: American is a SECULAR nation, meaning regardless of what religion you follow, or don't follow, it will not rule the land when it comes to the law of the land.

And, yes, the laws of the land are above the laws written by any religion, regardless of whatever anyone wants to believe. The government still has a responsibility to step into any situation when they believe any religion is trumping state and/or federal law.

That being said, America is a Democratic Republic. Our elections are Democratic in nature, yet on a federal level, America is a Republic. Why is that you ask? Simple: NOT MOB RULE.

Much like when the majority of people believed Mormons should be hunted down and killed, so much so that they had to flee to Mexico, this mob rule was stopped eventually, because of Americas laws that allow freedom from and of religion and that there be no mob rule, even if most of the people believed that Mormons should be hunted and killed, the state and federal level laws were there to protect them.

Hence, just because most of the people in the Mormon Church chose to make it their mission to take away equal rights to a minority and then want to make a state legal document, (marriage license) lose all its legal holding for that same minority, does not mean that it is right or should even be considered legal.

If we in America want to live by mob rule, I say, we should break up into groups, and start trying to pass laws that reflect our bigotry for certain minorities.

How about these:

Mormons, Moonies, Scientologists, Quakers, Christian Scientists, and any other religion that does not believe in what the majority of what other organizations that fall under the title "Christian", should be killed, as the bible says un-believers and those who guise themselves as good are evil and will destroy the world.

If a black man looks at a white woman, and she feels threatened, he can be lynched?

If a Muslim prays in public, laying down his matt, in the middle of a public park where people may see him, he should be shot, for he may have a WMD and be a suicide bomber...better safe than sorry.

President Elect Barrack Obama, may or may not be secret Muslim, he is the Anti-Christ, so say many fundamental Christians. Should he be legally removed by force?


These are just three laws that some people in America believe should pass. Should we let them, or let any, if the individual is from a group considered a minority in the USA?

The job of the government is to make sure the majority does not control any minority; otherwise the USA will look much like a dictatorship or theocracy, where dogma and fascism rules the land.

Hitler supported this, and oddly, many Catholics did too, and look what the outcome was.

The Founders of America were not anti-religious, nor were they fundmentalists, they knew, from personal experience, and from what they saw happening in the USA, (Puritans killing Quakers) that religion should not be allowed to place a legal discrimination on any minority. Along with this, they knew that keeping church and state separate, was the best way to allow the churches to not be overrun by politicians who law down rules and churches would flourish, as they knew that the state would run more smoothly without religious motivated politicians trying to pass laws to allow a mob rule, like killing Mormons, to rule the land.

Corey Mondello, Boston Massachusetts, www.CoreyMondello.com
Corey Mondello , January 02, 2009 | url
... , Lowest rated comment [Show]
"worship how, where or what they may." ... really?? Mormons believe that?!
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Those words are Mormon words, can you believe it?! Probably not, because Mormons themselves have so many empty claims including one that says everyone is free to worship however they want.... but what do Mormons actually do when it comes to freedom of religion? Harass everyone they can with evangelical missionaries who are trained on how to *sell* the Mormon religion. Condemn people based on their religion and/or Mormon activity levels: "member in good standing" "active member" "less-active member" (which everyone knows is Mormon-code for "apostatizing") "member" "non-member" but worst of all... "apostate" which is often said with quiet horror, because "apostate" means "abject failure of a person who's now in Satan's power".

In Mormon temples Mormons are ordered to Bow Their Heads and Say Yes to whatever their leaders tell them to do. Where's the free agency in that?? Along with being ordered to submit their lives, money and everything to the Mormon religion, they are threatened with eternal damnation by a person playing the role of Satan promising that if they don't do everything they're supposed to, and more, they will be in Satan's power. [big pause so that threat can really sink in...]

If someone comes up to you on the street and tells you to do what they say or they will hurt you, that is criminal behavior. But somehow Mormons think it's ok to play-act the exact same kind of behavior to threaten their followers into absolute obedience "or else." The mere word "apostate" has been carefully crafted by Mormon leadership to, in just one word, brand a Mormon as a follower of Satan who is a bigger **danger** to everyone around that person than if Satan himself walked into the room. Crazy, yes, but this is part of how Mormonism conditions it's followers to obey without questioning.

But if a Mormon Boy Scout leader is molesting countless boy scouts while still paying his Mormon tithing, attending his Mormon meetings and being a good little Mormon in every way except for sexually assaulting every boy scout he can, the Mormon church will rally behind that Scout leader as seen in searched on the Internet along with a series of damning articles about how Mormons deal with pedophiles. (Hint: Mormonism is full of free-roaming pedophiles.) http://www.postregister.com/scouts_honor/index.php Whether Mormonism has hidden more sexual assaults against women and children than the Catholics have hidden, or not, is unknown, but Mormonism hides sexual perpetrators behind their Wall Of Suit exactly how many police departments hide criminal police behind Walls Of Blue.

The Mormons pretend to be "persecuted" when we stand up to their ongoing efforts to make the whole world Mormon. Mormons have been deeply conditioned to "cry wolf" over many different trigger words and topics. Amy is spot-on in saying "Discrimination is somehow defined as the absence of total Mormon domination. The logic implies “unless we can make everyone like ourselves, we are being discriminated against.”"

I grew up seeing this happening all around me, and I was in Calif!! I saw it all around me and tried to go along and make sense of it all because no one dares stand up to the institutionalized Mormon oppression. But one day all the blatant hypocrisy and downright LYING somehow opened my eyes to the fact that Mormonism has institutionalized lying and hypocrisy right along with the oppression. Fact is that there is NO physical evidence to back up ANY of Mormonism's claims. Has even one massive battlefield been uncovered yet? No, but dinosaur bones are constantly being found, along with artifacts from every *real* civilization that has ever walked the Americas. Jewish DNA in the Native peoples of North, Central or South American? Nope, NONE at all.

NONE of the fairy-tale allegations Mormonism makes can be proven - that is why Mormons are so insecure about their religion that they cannot objectively discuss any of it. Deep down, they know Mormonism is a fraud, proven by themselves having to constantly shove their religion in everyone's faces they possibly can. If Mormonism was true, no one would have to distort the facts, no one would have to lie to defend it. It would stand on it's own two feet, but Mormonism has no foundation in reality. Instead, Mormonism is a fancy building floating in the clouds, mocking anyone who tries to point out the truth to them because they're too afraid to admit they're *wrong* and the world is right: Mormonism is just a bunch of clever stories and lies mingled with truths stolen from other sources, overarched by unending threats of eternal damnation against anyone who would dare to stand up and truthfully point out: "But the Mormon Emperor has no clothes. He's just a big fat liar."
Jessica Hall , January 02, 2009
...
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I guess there were a lot of Mormon’s with nothing to do on New Years Eve! Every mean spirited post seems to have come from a member of the mormon church. This just goes to show how ANYONE that offers a different perspective is treated. This writer did not bash the church or contradict doctrine, yet everyone is so threatened by her. In other religions people can have conversations on a human level, and appreciate people’s personal experiences.
Gringo , January 02, 2009
The enemy Is Insidious
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Isaiah 26.2
Steve1954 , January 03, 2009 | url
Thank you to comments from Great Article describing your personal experience
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I am 52 years old, was born into the Latter Day Saint faith, was baptized at age 8, have been married 28 years, have 4 children, and consider myself an active member of the LDS faith. I read Amy's article with great interest and did not feel threatened or angry in the least. I was however,very taken aback by the vehemence of those who somehow did feel attacked and felt they needed to attack in return. Frankly I was much more embarassed by the "high and mighty" comments than by anything in Amy's article.
Diane Wiscombe , January 03, 2009
Excellent narrative.
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I've had many similar experiences as you growing up in a devoutly LDS family in the 90's, though I must admit that I was blessed growing up in the liberal San Francisco Bay Area. I think our wards were much more progressive when it came to women's lib than those of Jello-land (Mormons will understand this referrence to Utah). My high school seminary teacher herself even had a PhD!

I'm certainly not at all surprised by the vapid remarks made by certain LDS members here in your comments section. Don't let them get to you, as I'm sure you know every LDS is taught that no one in their right mind would dissent from church teaching, assuming of course, they had a "proper testimony" with which to start.

Latter-day Saints are some of the most presumptuous people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting, especially when it comes to former Mormons. Every person that ever disagrees with a prophet or dares to even gracefully leave the church is quickly labeled an evil apostate and eventually (once other members take note of the 'apostates' absence) is ascribed certain *presumptuous* reasons for having left. Since in the "true believing Mormon's" eyes, no good, true Mormon could ever lose the blind faith necessary to "follow the prophet", the only possible reason for leaving the church is the desire to "legitimize one's sins", or "wallow in homosexuality", ain't that right!? :-p

In any account, I thoroughly enjoyed this piece and I think that you have accurately portrayed the LDS dynamic being at odds with a progressive society. I especially enjoyed your analysis to (what seems) to be the LDS belief that they are merely "defending themselves". Any 5th generation Mormon who descends from pioneer stock is constantly reminded of the hardships that 19th century Latter-day Saints had to endure including vile physical and political persecution. To an extent, I believe the legacy of "those persecuted on behalf of Zion's cause" lives even today in Mormon circles and many Mormons ERRONEOUSLY equate dissent from LDS beliefs or even condemnation of the hierarchy's actions as "persecution".

I sure hope I didn't give any ideas to such... Remember folks, pointing out the foibles of Mormonism in general and Mormons specifically is far from an encore of Hans Mill!

The one point in which my experience dramatically differed from yours is in our mothers. My mom, for all intents and purposes, could be called a "doubting Thomas of Mormonism". Even that might not be correct! My mother, though holding many callings in the church (from Sunday School, to seminary, to Relief Society president) was certainly not one to conveniently fold when her personal conviction was at odds with the hierarchy. She was and is a liberal at heart even when it came to such taboo issues as womens liberation and homosexuality. I've heard stories of my mom marching in civil rights protests during the 60's (you know, when 'Mark of Cain' was still being taught in sunday schools), and there's even a seedy rumor in our family that she once appeared before a disciplainary council for supporting the IRA during the 70's when the church did to IT essentially what it did in 2008 with prop 8 (luckily I believe the church has learned its lesson from the 70's and has decided to be a little more prudent with their doling out of excommunication). I'm not exactly certain how the woman holds up such cognitive dissonance, yet she does it and to such an extent that it works I think she ought to be applauded for it.

Again, excellent work!

Bryan from SF.
"A Jack Mormon"
Bryan , January 03, 2009
I spoke too soon!
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Diane Wiscombe,

I unfortunately wrote my comment while you were posting yours, and oh how I wish I had seen it prior to my spouting off. I admit I was rather angered by the resoundingly critical responses by other members of the church that I allowed my distaste to affect the amount of charity in my post.

You are not only a model of tolerance but a model of what every temperant Latter-day Saint should be!

God bless!
~Bryan
Bryan , January 03, 2009
...
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JDD, January 01, 2009 writes:
-------
Most objective scholars agree that Mormons are Christian. Consider this quote from an academic book entitled "Anthology of World Scriptures" by Robert E. Van Voorst. {quote elided}


Likewise, a recent poll showed that the majority of Americans believe that Mormons are Christians.
-------



We can bypass the entire question of mormonism versus Christianity, and simply ask the man in the street a few more basic questions:

1. Do you think an organization that is building a multi-billion dollar shopping mall in Salt-Lake City could be construed as a religion of any kind?

2. How religious is a group that owns a _cattle ranch_ in Florida? (Consider the 450+ square mile "Deseret" ranch outside Orlando, owned by the mormon church.)

3. Is it not bizarre that the Marriott Corporation (run by mormons) generates huge profits from providing pornography, alcohol and tobacco in its hotels? Or that Mitt Romney, mormon presidential candidate, sat on the board of that corporation?

4. What "religious" doctrine enables a "church" to own an insurance company? (ie, Beneficial Finance, owned by the mormon church).





Astonished , January 10, 2009

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